Hi NAME REDACTED, I am happy to discuss these things. Yes, we are looking at the data differently. For me I trust your opinion (and NAME REDACTED and NAME REDACTED) because it is not ethereal drivel but one tempered with real life Christian work. You are very free to comment so please also allow me.
- FoxNews, Hannity and Tucker – at home we listen to all of them. Actually what we do is flip between all the news channels to see how and what they are reporting on a particular story. It’s very interesting to see the varying perspectives each with a modicum of truth but never fully truthful.
- I suggest you pick one liberal news outlet to follow to get a little balance. MSNBC Nicole Wallace may fit your tastes best but try them all and pick one. Your emails are literally scripted by the news feeds you follow. It would improve the dialog if you at least imagined an alternate way of seeing the same facts.
- The problem with quoting others, Father Altman was disgraceful (meaning it lacked the voice of Grace which is Christ). It literally is a Repbulican Party platform.Here is Crux’s take: https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-usa/2020/09/catholic-community-in-wisconsin-divided-by-priests-video/
- I do look for a wide set of expressions with faith too. I subscribe to two very different news outlets (besides usccb and the vatican). When I contribute to the discussion threads I find the far right Catholic community to act as rabid infected animals just as badly as the far left. No virtue there. It seems that the thought process is being reduced to the minimal allowed list of topics and solutions.What good can come of that?
- The Remnant News https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php also discus.com which is a discussion forum. The vicious attacks come from the right. Since you believe ad hominem attacks are only on the left, then you must go to discus.com and find a fellow named pamino. My ID is Deacon Gerry Palermo. I can assure you the evil of exaggerated opinions are in fact everywhere.
- The Atlantic theatlantic.com
- You are not reading the Church documents so clearly not keeping up on her teachings. CCC was changed years ago and reaffirmed again by the Pope recently. There is no permitted capital punishment, period. There is a difference between the act of the State and the act of an Individual and the contours of the question are vastly different between abortion and capital punishment.
Some personal points: I was a Republican but switched to Independent when Trump began his assault on democratic principles, DACA, tax law, etc. I know FoxNews doesn’t cover his crimes but they are freely available if you want to see them. Trump has been a criminal since I dealt with him in NYC. Sorry. Funny though, everyone said if Trump is as bad as they say, we’ll Impeach/convict him. Hmmm. Funny everyone said, once we get our Supreme Court, we’ll vote against him. Hmmmm. In the end, aligning with Trump isn’t about his positive actions and his appointments. It’s about ‘it belongs to me and nobody can have any of it’.
Some replies below:
Democratic party is challenged. It definitely does not subscribe to mainstream Catholic teachings. It subscribes to some sort of evolving perspective which contains some Christian dogma but not all and not enough. Some good, some awful. However, you cannot lump everything into their mainstream camp as evil. This is a critical moral error. Statues are statues and the question of banning public display of Confederate Generals, Dixie Flags, Saints etc are worthy public discourse but not an occasion to paint the other evil. More examples in your thread: (you say, I reply style)…
- They will simply leave it up to the individual states as the Constitution requires – not a moral question per se. Plenty of moral people disagree with you with good cause either way! Besides we have no idea how they will rule.
- You might have a point in third world countries but in the US that is pretty rare – science is science globally. Viability remains an uncontested point except is it 24 weeks versus 28 weeks when a baby can be sustained in life outside the womb. One is one. Medical-clinical reality.
- Freedom to Religion is a core belief, for all Americans. When the cross current between them occurs it is very difficult to navigate. Please print and read the Roe v Wade 1973 decision (the original). They placed a heavy emphasis on the balance between many rights and responsibilities. It is very difficult for an American to presuppose that the Catholic vision of things is the only vision in this democracy. Even there, within the Catholic faith, differences. If you insist that morals can only be decided by the Church then why have a vote? Blended families, civil unions, etc, are not necessarily our ways but we do have to live with people who ascribe to them.
- Contempt for the biological nuclear family – again not a moral dimension and certainly hyper judgmental because their contempt is a product of the exclusion of other living arrangements not of biological nuclear families – you mis-categorize their position.
- Governance by elite judges – again not a moral dimension.
- Do I need to continue or are you willing to concede that you have wrapped a lot of debatable points into the pro life camp that simply don’t belong?
Pro-Life – NO ONE involved in the political pro-life movement talking about
laws without Mercy. I have nearly ZERO confidence that the people you align with in the Republican Party will do anything in supporting women in crisis. Gov Jeb Bush was the last to do so and he no longer fits in that Republican party tent. The accompanying platform items are clearly not interested. Leave it to the States? Voter suppression is a hallmark of Jim Crow and continues with the stripping out of the Civil Rights Act all controls. You ask me to believe something not remotely possible. Your comment “Inordinate dependency on welfare has been an unmitigated disaster for black families” can certainly chill any hope that the GOP sees women in crisis are anything more than an inconvenient truth. It gets wrapped conveniently in the lazy black people theology. Likewise this: What confuses me is why you would side with a group that is intent on increasing the number of abortions – not decreasing the number. Nobody wants to increase the number of abortions. Can I turn the inflammatory comment around? What confuses me is why you would side with a group that is intent on increasing the number of deaths due to: poverty, disenfranchisement, racism, etc, etc. How does it feel?
- 1 out of a 1000 abortions, if not performed, would imperil the life of the mother in the US – I am sure you see the difficulty here using the 60M vesrses the 1,000 arguement. So they exceptions lists of the States (incest, rape, etc) do these find favor with you? Here is the moral question: Do you want a 100% option of never? You certainly want my opinion, what is yours? Do you see any case of allowable based on some sort of reasonable medical opinion of viability and balance of life issue?
- Demonic forces – by what measure do you make such statements? Jesus was often described as demonic because they didn’t want to listen. Food for thought.
- Although Jesus doesn’t condemn them he sure would like if we did EVERYTHING in our power to lead them AWAY from that option. So you don’t listen to my homilies then 🙂 Jesus used the ‘Fence around the Torah’ approach. He outlined a series of behaviors in concentric circles around the law – that go from acceptable, to tolerated, to rejected, to tragic. (See Matthew 5:27-28 and Mark 7:14-23 for two of many examples).
- Abortion is a form of suicide. Please reflect on that.
So we both commingle many items together to get to the point of I vote _____ (fill in the blank). I try hard not to over step my opinions.
Hopefully I never said how I voted because it is not proper for me to say exactly who I voted for. My counter arguments are firm and my disgust with the person of Donald Trump cannot be dismissed as politics. For me his handling of the Russia Thing and the COVID-19 thing are worthy reasons to vote him out without a doubt. You of course can disagree but please do not frame evil versus evil. I believe the tragedy of his presidency is the eventual loss of a united nation. No matter who wins this election.
As to the USCCB voter guidance being mealy mouth. Yikes! You are one step away from The Remnant saying Pope Francis is an antipope.
When you think back on the disintegration of the political system we will find the lack of acceptance as being the core problem.
We Catholics have the right to profess and push for our moral visions. We cannot assume that this is the only vision possible unless we are prepared to return to the days where only the Catholic voice is valid. And of course that never caused any problems.
Here are the things we did not discuss:
- There is a sizable numner of young people who have organically rejected abortion as an option not by any action of the GOP but by inspiriation of the Holy Spirit.
- There is a sizable number of young people who have decided that early chemical abortion is the way and using this as the proxy for abortion rights – numbers that we cannot count but analogically I have heard of many, many cases.
- We Catholics have closed off: Sex Education, Birth Control (except one method), validation of alternate families as reality.
- Defunding is a GOP passtime for many supportive services.
- We associate abortion with all evils (individual and social) when the woman who does so sees none of that.
- We see no exceptions and the logic of Roe v Wade 1972 is fatally flawed.
- We have LOST our ability to place fences around the torah.
- We no longer see Acceptable, Tolerable, Not Acceptable and Not Allowed continuum to be considered. Only My Way.
- We no longer see any difference between the Brotherhood of Adam and the Brotherhood of the Baptised. A critical intolerant approach.
So except for trusting Jesus this is the first time I have seen the Church unable to imagine that one could vote one way or the other. You are in agreement with Father Altman that you cannot be Catholic and a Democrat and all Democrats are evil. This is quite the statement. You have me in alliance with evil. Yet claim we should be friends?
I just want to point out that this is a very confused position and that is the whole point. I know my position is complicated and contains the messiness of life. I don’t think you realize you are just as conflicted despite your declaratives. It is irrational to say we can disagree and be friends but you are evil.
Here is a point to consider. If there was no law allowing abortion we would be arguing just as strongly for women with child outside of wedlock? And what would the arguments contain. I can tell you what they are but not sure you want to hear it. Please recognize we are trapped in the times we live in and our expressions are products of the environment.
- Ideal – in the perfect moral answer – no abortions, period. Women with severe circumstances will rely upon faith ahd the good will of others to help them. This is a spiritual illusion. This condition will never occur because ‘the poor you will have with you always’.
- Acceptable – anything here?
- Tolerable – anything here?
- Intolerable – seems full.
- Prohibited – seems full.
So here is the problem. We can’t even attempt to figure out that scale anymore. That will be our undoing.
I have an advantage. I see these statements as a tragic condition of our times. I also see them as a rejection of Jesus who wanted a journey of conversion to be the model to follow. The only people Jesus rejected are:
- The powerful of religion and government.
- The monied class who are biased.
- The crooks who steal from the widow and orphan.
So before you begin a reply of telling me how evil Joe Biden is … please first check my links above and consider the points I provided.
All the best,